When in Rome

The First Triumvirate ends TODAY!!! and Gabby plays judge, jury, and executioner!!! MEANWHILE Justine researches Vercingetorix -- the real guy who inspired Vercinix! 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Record, record, record, record, record.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Hello. We are in a time of ancient gods, the Xena podcast, and we are re-watching every episode of our favorite TV show, Xena Warrior Princess. And we are researching the myths, the heroes, the themes we meet in the Xenaverse. I'm Justine, and my favorite co-host of all time with me today is Is it me? It's Hailey? It was you, surprise. It's Haley.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Hi.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Um top of the episode, we're gonna plug our Patreon where we post screenshots from our episodes, our research references for every episode, and little mini sodes with extra research. There's a link to the Patreon in the description of the episode, but where else can people find all of the information about us?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

If only there was a website called InATimeofancient Gods.com. There is. Lucky for you. You can go there right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Scroll it. It's infinitely scrollable. Oh boy. I finally actually paid for um the full website, but I haven't um yet. I I kind of like the infinitely scrollable. I mean, who doesn't?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

We get so many infinitely clickable websites. It's like an infinitely scrollable website.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Uh what have you been up to, Haley?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Standard. It's really warm today. It's like summery and hot.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

So I'm wearing shorts for the first time in like six months at least. Maybe a year.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

It's quite warm. And what else? Uh we did a little slip and slide fun the other day with a real slip and slide slash generic brand slip and slide in the backyard. It was fantastic. I love that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's it. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 2:30

You've just been summer fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Slip and sliding.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Well, I every day, all day.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

I gotta get it out. Nine in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Kids get back on the slip and slide.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Who's got those? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Anyway, what have you been doing?

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Um, I saw Mortal Kombat 2 starring Carl Urban. Oh, was it good? Uh Carl Urban was great. Great. He was like, it was very Bruce Campbell-y, just like snarky, you know, kind of older dude doing like action horror stuff. Uh it was really gory and violent. Do not take your kids.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Good.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Um, and I'm not really like invested in the Mortal Kombat lore. So I'm not really the best person to talk about it. But Carl Urban was great. So it was nice prep work for this episode.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

It sounds great. Yeah. Mortal Kombat definitely reminds me of and only reminds me of the corner store near my house. It wasn't really a corner store, but had one Mortal Kombat machine in it. And the boys would always be playing there when we would go get. It was down the block in the mid-block at the bottom of the hill. Huh. Random. Now it's a laundromat.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

They love that. Any neighborhood boys would be around Mortal Kombat. I think Mortal Kombat, the soundtrack, amazing. We listened to a lot of the soundtrack on the way after the movie.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah. Mortal Kombat.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

If you remember that from the 90s. But anyway, uh, let's dive in because we got a lot to talk about this episode. So today is When in Rome. That's right. See what the Romans do. Uh written by Stephen L. Sears, our guy, uh, directed by John Lang. And he uh so this is his directorial debut in this universe. But we'll see him again this season. Uh, he also directed a couple Herciverse episodes and an episode of Cleopatra 2525, which I have yet to watch. But um Patreon people have watched it and mixed reviews, but I think everyone's supportive. So wonderful. Originally uh uh came out March 2nd, 1998. And would you like to hear the IMDB description? Sure.

unknown 4:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Tell me, break it to me. Get invested. Okay. When Julius Caesar captures Birkinics, Zina captures Crassus to trade for him. But Crassus plays with Gabrielle's head during the trip, leading her to doubt Xina's motives and judgment. I think it's like a B. I give it a C because I feel like Xina or Gabrielle doubting Xina's motives like wasn't really the major aspect of the episode. It felt more like her reckoning with her own choices and how she was like participating in her own life.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

I'm gonna go with that because I actually found it very unexciting, this IMDB description.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Yeah, I had to work myself up to even tell you.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

I can tell. That sigh gave me all I needed to know about that description. Also, it introduces Crassus and Rickinix without like as if we know who they are, which I was annoyed about.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Yeah, it's it's annoying. You know, I'm gonna give it a D. Maybe it's our first D. I'm angry.

unknown 5:42

You know, it's failed.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Now I feel angry. For you, who's the big bad?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Well, for me, the big bad is Caesar. That's I mean, I guess that was the easy choice, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

What about you? I say like the Roman Empire in general and misogyny. Yeah. There's a lot of just hate in the ladies on this episode. Mm-hmm. What gods do we meet?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

I didn't see any.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Did you see some? I didn't. I mean, I would I would argue that uh the she-wolf, Romulus and Remus' mom, is like technically a divine creature. See a little statue of her. And but also kind of interesting to like kind of interesting to not portray any of the like Roman versions of the Greek gods and like totally take away all spiritual life from the Romans. I think just how they portray the Romans is so great.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Any villagers.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Oh, we have lots of villagers, some key villagers, in fact. And bloodthirsty.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

They want more blood, in fact. I don't think there's any Doctor Cena. And uh the only cult.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Some dungeons, yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Certainly have quite a lot of dungeon scenes. And the love interest is Gabby for sure, but uh Caesar thinks he's the love interest.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

But he tries to find his way into some kind of attraction.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

But he's like never loved anything. Like this version of Caesar is just um almost inhuman. You know, he's like lost everything that makes you a human.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

He's frazzled, but not in love.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Yes, he's obsessed. Okay. Okay, so for research this episode, I researched who this person is behind Virkinix, the real guy Virkin Getterix, and we'll get to that in a minute. And then Haley for Patreon. Uh, what did you research?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Well, I was so inspired by some of the kind of party scenes in this episode that I decided to research wine fountains. Did they really have them? Kind of. I'll tell you more in the Patreon episode.

unknown 8:00

Kind of.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Excited. I can't wait to hear about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, it's pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Okay, so we open. Where are we?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Oh my gosh. Okay, so we're in like a fortress with a lot of sandy dirt at the bottom. There's a lot of flames up in the air, and there's like a brawl fight army situation going on. A battle.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

And we're in Gaul. It's like stamped on the screen gall. So we know where we are.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

And the Romans are fighting the Gauls. And the Romans are like have this really good generic Xenoverse bad guy look, where they're wearing like black leather helmets and matching outfits. And I feel like they did that kind of in spite of how they've depicted Romans in the past. Like they're just, we have to make sure they look like the bad guys.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Now we know those are the bad guys. Because the Gallic soldiers are all wearing like brown leather armor. Yeah. And that's like the main distinguishing feature.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Totally. They look like, you know, indigenous people of the earth. Like that's like their like, you know, they emerged.

unknown 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

And there's one like very tough Gaul guy with shoulder length curly brown hair, wearing his like light brown leather armor, and he's like knocking Romans out left and right. And this is Virginics. He's the leader of the Gauls. He's got a great cloak, too. He's great. We love him. We can tell he's like, this is an honorable guy, like fighting for his people.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

We immediately want the action figure. We're excited about the battle. He's also using a lot of like mace battle. Like there's a lot of flailing, flails, and maces going on in this particular battle. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

It was really, we're in the action and like we're wondering where Zina is, but we're also present. Yeah. So and right when we're like, oh, I miss Zina, we see uh Verkinnex's wife, Mandela. She's a blonde warrior woman. So we're like, okay, cool. They have like the Gauls have women on their side too.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Right. And there they are off at battle. We're in this, we're immediately now pro-Gaul.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

We're totally. Yeah, we're pro-Gaul. They're winning. Romans are retreating. But as they're retreating, we hear some Roman extras going, reinforcements are on the way. The Gauls evacuate the villagers, but a few warriors stay to fight the Romans. Mandela and Virkinix share this like romantic moment before she has to go lead the people and their children to safety. Right. I love them. They're great. Okay, so then the Gauls kind of regroup to fight the Romans, but a Roman soldier on horseback ensnares Virchinix with a net. They beat him up, subdue him, and into their custody. And who shows up?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Well, somebody comes riding in on a horse, horseback. Pomp and circumstance. Yeah. Pomp and circumstance. It's Julius Caesar. He's got his little snooty attitude on.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

He's wearing gold armor that's like never seen battle. Stupid red plume. He looks like a fool.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

I didn't notice, but it probably even has like the chest armor with a very articulated, like completely body. I'm like, okay. But he's ready. He's here. And I'm just gonna note that horseback net ensnarment is gonna play a role throughout the battles in this great um episode. They're like, we want more nets and we want them now. So Virkynex is stuck in a net.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

He is. Um and Caesar recognizes him, and they have this like salty exchange, and then it turns out Caesar doesn't even care about conquering the Gauls. He just wants to have subdued the legend of Rkynex because he's all about spectacle. Like we're very clear in this episode that Caesar isn't, you know, fighting he's fighting the war with minds, right? He's not necessarily like caring about battle on battle.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

And speaking of like divinities, he's also kind of like trying to take over, like conquer the image of this kind of semi-divine rebel in his Roman.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

They do they do they just do such a good job in the show.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I know.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Okay, so I'm going to talk a little bit about this Virkinics guy really fast. Just give me a second to pull everything up.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

While you're pulling that up, I'm gonna note that um Caesar says that with Virginics, he's going to secure his empire, an empire. And I was like, doesn't he already have one? No, because it's not because they're it's still the Senate.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

The like uh yeah, is because Caesar became the first emperor thing. We learn so much, like it's essentially an empire because but it's like Caesar and Pompey and Crassus are the um the triumvirate, right? So like they're the ones who are holding all the power. So they're kind of like acting as the emperor, but each of them are fighting for power. We'll we'll talk about it. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Tell me all about it. Okay. So okay, let's see.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

So today I read a bunch of fun articles. There's links to all the uh research on our Patreon. Um, really fun book. It's called Enemies of Rome: The Barbarian Rebellion Against the Roman Empire by Stephen Kershaw. And I've used that book for when in my research on Boudica too. So there's like Buddhiceia. Who even knows how to say her name anyway? Who knows? But uh a lot of great information on there. Okay, so in this episode, we're meeting the leader of the Gaulish Rebellion named Verkinics, based on a real guy who historians refer to as Virkin Geterix. And this is actually an honorific, not a name. It means supreme king of warriors or great leader of heroes in the Gaulish language, and we don't actually know his birth name. So, Haley, you researched ancient Gaul for our season two episode Destiny. So if people want to like a deep dive, they can go check out your work there. Um, but a little refresher, because we're here in this episode, is Gaul was the Roman name for a region spread over present-day like France, Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany, and northern Italy. So, like that's the kind of European base we're in there. And the label and name Gaul was used by Romans to describe this like cultural and military area founded on this common Celtic religion and language. So all Gauls were Celts, but not all Celts were Gauls, because um, like Celtic culture spread so much further. Um then we kind of see this Celtic vibe with these characters in the episode. So most of what we know about the Gauls and Vircangeterix are from Julius Caesar's accounts of his wars with Gaul from 58 to 50 BCE. Uh, and we don't have any written accounts from the Gaulish side. So Caesar wrote through the lens of like the invading and expanding Rome. And to Caesar, Vircangeterix was the personification of Celtic resistance against Rome and Roman ideals. So like that anger and hate, like, you know, hatred and jealousy and like respect or whatever, like is real.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

And then there's this long history of oscillating dominance and control between the Gauls and the Romans. So in like 390 BCE, the Gauls invaded and sacked Rome. And at this time, um, I believe was the only time Rome had been sacked in like 800 years. And in 222 BCE, part of Gaul was conquered by the Romans, and then the wars just continued from there. And Caesar famously invaded the largest part of Gaul through his campaigns in the 50s. And in the Xenoverse, we typically live between like 500 BCE and 200 CE. So it's like really easy to imagine this like heated and long-term violent relationship with the Gauls and Romans, like having this full life in the Xenoverse, too. That's true, totally. I'll just speak on it quickly. Like the outfits we see in this episode are like pretty like similar. They definitely pluck from like real life. Interesting. And so I think it's like really nice depictions.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Okay, so who was this guy? So he was, yes, Gallic nobleman and chieftain. He was born in about 82 BCE in Gergovia, uh, which was a walled city and the capital of the Arverni people. The Arverni lived in modern-day central France. Bonjour, they can get one of the most powerful tribes in ancient Gaul. His dad, Caltilus, had been an Arvernian chieftain. He held a lot of power, but he was executed by his people because he wanted to be king.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

So there's a lot of like power dynamics, a lot of people not wanting that. So as Caesar was pushing through Gaul in 52, there was a political upheaval back in Rome that took Caesar's attention and made space for this Gallic rebellion. The Gauls organized and attacked Roman civilians, and uh news flew across the land, whispers and shouts across the 150 miles to Virgin Geterix and the Arverni. He was like, now's our chance. So he wanted to mobilize the Arverni while Caesar was distracted. Uh, but a group of chiefs got together and they really didn't want to risk like unnecessary death or drawing Caesar's ire. So they expelled Virgin Geterix from his hometown. And while he was cast out, he was not deterred. Uh he recruited like other outcasts and like-minded people to take over the Averni, and his followers called him Rex or King. And it was really interesting how kind of times had changed from his dad's day, where he had like just gone on the shoulders of what his dad had tried to do. Right. So then this win really helped him like rally other tribes, including people like along the coast, so he had access to ports. Everyone voted him leader. Like he's like 30 years old. Um, and Caesar described him as extremely organized and like a little more ruthless than we see in the show. Um Caesar said that people, if people didn't meet Virgin Gettericks' demands, they'd be made to comply through torture. He would cut off ears, poke out eyes, light people on fire. But like, well, who knows? Yeah, that's what Caesar says. That's what Caesar says. I was like, that's probably what Caesar did. He's just like saying that. But what you do, Caesar? Caesar sounds like what you do. Sounds like what you do, man. So Verkin Gettericks' armies successfully separated Caesar and his army in the south from the rest of the Roman armies in the north of Gaul. And Caesar was like furious. Sure. And he retaliated by taking a small forces over snowy mountains, six feet deep with snowfall, to sneak up on the Auverni and were called.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

And they put little tennis rackets on their shoes to go over those mountains.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

No, but it's like kind of evoking the images of like Hannibal crossing the Alps with his elephant. So, also, like, did this really happen? Or are you just trying to like connect yourself with this like past images of strength? Sure. So Caesar wanted to try and lure Vic and Virgangeterix back to his homeland and into this trap. And Virgangeterix, he didn't suspect that this was going to happen. And the Romans eventually overpowered the Gauls here. And after this defeat in battle, Virgangeterix starts this like scorched earth tactic against the Romans. He tells the people that, you know, it might seem cruel, but the alternative is Rome slaughtering all the men, dragging all the women and children into slavery. And the towns agreed unanimously. So they like slash and burned 20 towns in a day. Oh my gosh. And this says like a lot about his charisma and how much the gods hated Rome. You know, that you would destroy everything you know and love.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Oh, especially like Rome, it sounds like had possessions in the north and the south. And so they probably did have exposure to, you know, warfare in general and Roman conquest or the rumors of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

And like they've been living, it was yeah, it was definitely felt like the final, like this is this is it. This is the final battle. Like, what else are we gonna do? Okay, so at this point, there were uh a lot more battles, some very cool techniques. Um, for folks who are really interested, I would definitely recommend checking out Kershaw's book, Enemies of Rome.

unknown 19:22

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

I'm not gonna hash them all out here, so we'll jump to the final battle, which was the Battle of Elysias in September 52 in modern-day Eastern France. And Vircangeterix's like pretty famous surrender to Caesar.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Okay, so final battle. The Gauls put up a good fight, but the Romans eventually overpowered them and the Gallic revolt collapsed. Vircing Geterix urged his people to surrender and offered himself to Caesar to spare his people. And then we have this scene, kind of according to ancient Roman historians. Vercingeterix rode up in his battle armor on his decorated horse through the gates of the city. He circled around Caesar and other Roman generals. They remained seated. He threw his weapons at Caesar's feet, dropped down from his horse, stripped off his own armor, sat before Caesar, surrendering himself, and said, Oh my gosh! Receive these spoils, thou thyself, bravest of men, hast conquered a brave enemy. And it's like a pretty honorable light that Caesar painted him in.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Which makes Caesar look like a lot better, you know, if he's conquered a worthy foe. Right. But there's also thoughts that Vircangeterix like had collaborated with Caesar for personal gain throughout the war.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

But maybe that's just a smear campaign. Because after this surrender, Vircangeterix was imprisoned in Tulianum, the Roman state prison, for six years. And in 46 BCE, he was publicly displayed at Caesar's Triumph, which was this big civil and religious event held to celebrate the military victories and victors. So disgusting. And he was Virgin Geterix was executed that year. Not at the event, but uh possibly by strangulation, people say. Oh dear. So there's like a lot of thoughts on why he was executed. Yeah. Like because other Gallic kings had been spared in the past. Uh, and there is this like mounting pressure on anti-Gaelic sentiments in Rome because the war had been going on for a while, and Caesar had been recruiting Gauls for his armies. So there's that pressure of his soldiers having to like fight alongside their former enemies. Right. And Roman citizens wanting revenge for the people that the Gauls had killed. So Caesar was always trying to like consolidate power and curry the favor of the Roman people. Because like we see that in this episode, we see that in history. Like that's his thing. And he's like just always playing the Game of Thrones. Like it doesn't matter who dies. Totally. Uh, and I just like love the Xenoverse through line of like rewriting history so that the enemies of Rome survive, and Caesar's always the bad guy. Like it's so great. And I think this episode is just it's just so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah. Well, I love hearing about Furt Kinnox and like his, I mean, that story. Of his surrender is also very kind of very romantic portrayal of a hero. Right. And he kind of like swoon over that totally. Because he's fully surrendering. Yeah. But also showing. I mean, he's riding, if he's riding around Caesar and the generals, he could have chopped all of their heads off in that moment. Of course, he would have died immediately afterwards. But this kind of like moment of parley.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

I feel like that's something that's like very, very Roman of making the surrender always seem like an honorable one and the win being an honorable win of like two well-met foes. Right, absolutely. And like making it seem like the person they've defeated really respect them, you know. It's like no one respects you, Caesar. Everyone hates you. Stop attracting. Fading.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he spent his whole life, his whole adult life, trying to burn the villages who were loyal to him. Yeah. In order to stop Caesar's advance.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

So probably not that happy. No. But yeah, interesting. And I think really like grounds this episode in this like, ah, it just feels, I don't know, this episode, the tension and just the feeling of like the underlying, I don't know, what is it exactly? Um, it just feels so layered, I guess. Like this episode really um felt like it was built on a lot.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. And super fun. I mean, I think like I love thinking of the writer's room where they're like, well, we haven't done Virkinics yet. Yeah. Bring it.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Someone's like, Yeah, they're like, well, we can't really say Virkin Gettericks, so let's shorten it. Yeah, great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

It's gonna be really hard to say Virkin Gettericks a million times in this episode. And it is. It's hard to say. Sorry. Sorry, Virk Birky. None of the actors are gonna want to say that in every line.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Okay. So now we go to a different Roman battleground in Syria. We're back in the Xeniverse. We're grounded in our reality, but we're back in the Xenoverse. We're a world away from modern day France. The earth is scorched, though. The Romans have lost. The Syrian army is lining up Roman soldiers to execute.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Oh, yeah. We have a really excellent soldier who just growls out every line. Which I love.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Oh, he was a good guy. He did a good job. He was good.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

He chooses a battle-weary blonde Roman soldier who we don't recognize, but looks kind of like a general. And then the Syrian executioner raised his sword to behead him when we hear a familiar battle cry.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Is it? It is! A bunch of a bundle of swords comes flying through the air, crashes to the Roman soldier's feet. The Roman captives rise up to fight their way to freedom. And Xena rides in on Argo. And we're like, why is she helping the Romans? What's going on? What's happening? Um, and she knows this guy. Mm-hmm. Who is it, Haley?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

It's Crassus. This is the man who we've been focused on, who's kind of, yeah, battle-weary soldier, general guy. Seems to be in fancy armor.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Yeah, fancy armor, but definitely like battle-hardened, I think, in seeing him in opposition to Caesar. This is like a really well-written episode of like seeing him in opposition to Caesar over he's like on the ground, he's been defeated. Caesar's in his gold luster.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah. And he's like surprised, but he's like happy to be safe, but also suspicious of what Xena's motives are because she's threatened to kill him in the past. She said the next time she saw him, she would kill him. Yeah. So he's like, Uh, why are you here?

SPEAKER_03 25:44

And then she whips him around the legs and drags him out of the melee. Yeah. We ride into the woods to meet up with Gabby. And Gabby's really worried about not making to it to the boat on time.

unknown 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

She's like, We gotta get to the boat. It's leaving. When it goes, it's not gonna be there. They have a boat and a plan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Uh and Zina's feeling pretty good about herself because she loves torturing Romans.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

And okay, so then Crassus talks about the first triumvirate. He's like gives a great first explainer of who he is.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

So again, like we know they were the Roman power trio of Julius Caesar, Marcus Licinius Crassus, this guy, and Pompey the Great, who we will meet soon. We're in a time before Rome was technically an empire, these guys were senators and generals who held all the Roman power, really. Because of their alliance, they could sway the Senate and they could vote with each other.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

So interesting. And Zina is going to trade Crassus for Virginics. That's her goal. So we go on.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

She's heard through the grapevine that Virkinics has been captured. Runners have spread that news back and forth along the entire empire. So she's got this new prize that she's gonna trade.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Yeah. And so Zina is being a key player in the Gaulish Wars. We are invested in the wars. Gabby has agreed to be a part of this war. Okay. So just keep that in your mind while Gabby's making all of her choices. Okay. So we're on the sea in a ship. Uh hold on.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Don't forget about the theme.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Oh, I'm I just skipped over it.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

What am I doing? It's right there.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

It's the best.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

It's surprising because it comes kind of late in this episode. We've already been through two scenes and now we're here at the theme. I was thrown up to have it there because we're like, now we know for sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

We know her courage is going to change the world. We didn't know where we were, but Zina's gonna take care of it. She's in the room. It'll be fine. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

So we're on a boat. There's like some gentle Libana style vocalization in the background. Because we're sailing back to Greece.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

We're getting out of all that. Or I guess we're going to Rome, but well. From Syria to Rome. And Gabby's Gabby's not seasick anymore because she uh knows about those pressure points. She's fine. She's conquered that fear. And she's taking care of Crassus. She's feeding him some gruel. She's like, here, hope you like gruel.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

And who doesn't?

SPEAKER_03 28:26

A little bit of sugar. I like a little bit. It's fine. And Crassus is trying to manipulate Gabby by saying he's not really friends with Caesar. And Zena's like, you know what? You guys are all just warlords who give yourselves fancy titles. And Crassula is like, no, we're politicians. And then Xena says, it's about power, nothing more. Caesar, Pompey, Crassus share control of Rome and its provinces. Each serves to balance the other. They hate each other, but they can't live without each other. And she takes the imperial ring off of Rome off of Crassus' finger, and she's going to send the ring to Caesar to prove she has him. And because she knows Caesar has been running through his funds and all of his big spectacles, and he needs Crassus' army to uh back him up. And Crassus knows that Zina hates Caesar, and so he's kind of trying to like play off of her hate. Everyone's just doing mind games on each other.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Mm-hmm. And it's interesting. So we know that Crassus and Zina like have a longer history. Yeah. With like a buildup to this moment. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

And then Crassus tries to convince Zina or convince Gabby that Zina's so obsessed with Caesar that everyone around her is going to get hurt, which we've seen before. So he's kind of playing to these things. But we've like moved beyond that. You know, we've like gone through the bittersweet. We've gone through Helen back.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Zina We're past bittersweet. So we know Zina's behavior is changed a little bit. She's no longer in those old cycles the same way.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

And it's fun having this episode after King Khan, which was just like nonstop shenanigans. And this episode is all just like human, political, intrigue, historical, technical. It's so good.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah.

unknown 30:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

So then we go to Caesar's Palace. It's dark. This big open concept space and lots of candles, uh, no decor except for some like battle penance and no religious iconography.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Right. It's very kind of austere, even though it's opulent. So it's got like torches, marble, some like ornate chairs. So everything's expensive, but it's not like you know, it's don't see a lot of wall-hanging carpets or no, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Celebrating life here. We're just we're getting we're dysfunctional. So Pompey and Caesar are sitting at a long table. Pompey's blonde and young, kind of hunky, and they're both in their like stupid Roman armor with our little bull hair, like bull haircuts.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

They've got their frosted tips going on. Pompey goes, I'm on control of the aqueduct! You know, I laugh so hard. It's just yells it, just yells it starts out the scene.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Which is just such such a great way to introduce a character. Like, because we know that they all hate each other, and it's like, yeah, you are just a little screaming baby. That is what you're about. He just wants that aqueduct. We don't even know which one. No, any of them. Any of them. And Caesar is so patronizing and like denying him control of the aqueducts. They think Crassus is dead. They totally don't care. So they're like they're renegotiating territory and power and like threatening civil war at each other. Pompey has the army, Caesar has the will of the people, and a soldier runs up and tells him that like Zina's there, she's unarmed. Pompey's like, a girl. Why? Well, well.

unknown 31:44

I know.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

And it's such a great example of the like subtle misogyny of Rome. Like it's not just Caesar, it's like culturally pervasive to be surprised by like an empowered femme person has just showed up. So Xena walks in, Caesar can't believe she walked into his house and he's like spluttering all over himself. Yeah. First time lost for words since we've known him.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

And did you write down what Zina said?

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Oh yeah. She says, there's a sentence in there, just dying to get out. Sorry about your soldiers. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

She's so biting. She's just being cool. I know. And then Pompey introduces himself as Pompey the Magnus, and like everyone but him thinks he's stupid.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

I know. They're all rolling their eyes and like, sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

It was so funny. And it's like so clear that Zina is a power player now. Like Crassus isn't dead. Zina's got him. So she's kind of in control of his army, right? Because she's in control of him. So they now need to try to like curry Xena's favor to try to like deal with all this.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I love this like Kingmaker Game of Thrones, like just I don't know if you've ever played Kingmaker, the game, but it's like an early modern Europe game. Okay. It sounds it sounds fun. It's Hundred Years War. It's actually pretty fun, but it has too many roles. I've only played it once in my entire life. Yeah. But it's stuck with it. It's basically just kidnapping different royal families, and then you kind of like use their power. You know, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

That does sound fun. I would be interested in playing once with my friends.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yes, yeah. The fun part of it is there's diplomacy that you can use. So it's not just like strategy and military buildup. But anyway, this is just like it, because like she's like, I've got this power player. And uh, you know, much like for most of the time period that we talk about in this podcast and early modern Europe, like jails in the towers or in the palaces were for political prisoners you keep for that like hold that you can have on their families or whatever, and they're the others who care about their political places. Humans are just the same, always. We're just the same. We're just always stealing people.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Just just taking those other families, keeping them in the tower.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

I mean, what never we don't need to talk about American politics right now, but it's fine. So she Xina offers to trade Crassus for Verkinics. Caesar's like, hmm, he hesitates. And then Xena's like, I'll send his finger over tomorrow, and then she'll get created after that. And then she drops the ring down her cleavage. And like, I don't know if it was intended or not, but like, since she's the most powerful person in the room at that moment, and then bring attention to her like female body while like describing cutting off one of the triumvirate's fingers and like you know, threatening to send his penis next, basically. It's just like such a such a great just a big like fuck you, you know, to like misogyny and everything. I just love when Xina uses her, um, knows how to use her body to really make a point in like the most pointed, subtle way. Ugh, just love her.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

I love Xena.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Okay, so next step, Zina's going to take Caesar to see Crassus to prove he's alive. And then Gabby's gonna stay in Rome in his place, but it there's there's a lot of going from one place to another in this episode.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

We're like, okay, we're just accepting that that's the plan, and it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

So we're at the ship at night. Crassus is happy to see Caesar, and Caesar is just being a little turd and like negging Crassus for being captured by a woman that he'd previously captured and chained. Zena's watching it all unfold smugly, and then Caesar uh finally agrees to trade, but only if it's after his party that night, where he's planned to show off her connects to all of his political donors.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

And he's like, Zina, why don't you come?

SPEAKER_03 35:38

I'd love it if you could come. Just have an evening off. Oh god. And she's like, whatever, let's just get this over with. Uh and then she runs up the stairs, but the stairs in the ship are too shallow, so she has to like run sideways. It's like not a very elegant exit.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

And then Caesar kind of leans forward to Crassus and whispers, divide and conquer, and suggests that he should try to fool Gabby. Yeah. Which Crassus is like, which makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Yeah. But also, like, that's this is the old game plan, boys. Right. Air onto your trip. It's not working anymore. Mm-hmm. So we cut to Zina and Gabby on a road with Argo, hashing out their plan.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Zina's going to Argo hopped on that ship and hopped right off. She's she's seaworthy.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

She is seaworthy. Oh, poor thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

She had to. She's looking great.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

She always looks great. We love Argo. So Zina's going to scout around, then go back to the boat. Gabia has to get Crassus into the same jail cell as Verkinics. Zina knows that Caesar won't do the trade. So they're going to have to switch Crassus and Verkinics themselves. Right. And Gabby doesn't trust that Zina's telling her the whole truth. Which, like, I'm just trying so aggressively to be compassionate and empathetic to Gabby because last time they met Caesar, Gabby was assaulted by a demon. She was forced to birth a demon baby. She did have to kill the demon baby after it killed Zina's son. So, like, there's still trauma there because healing isn't linear, you know?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

That's true. That's true. And she hasn't had a chance to see Xina encounter Caesar without having the same like takeover of her mental sphere that's like total revenge.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

Has Gabby been in the same room as them, or has she only seen Zina kind of talk about Caesar? Because she's been in.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

But it's been a while since they were like in Caesar since.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Oh, I guess they were they were just in the same room. Sorry. What am I talking about? Like just two scenes ago. None of us have a memory anymore.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

We're all living entirely in the present.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

I was like, what am I saying? Gabby's still in Rome. Or she wasn't, yeah, she was in Roman.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

She's in Rome, but she's she hasn't seen like the back, she hasn't seen an entire plot line play out with Zina since that traumatic encounter.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

True, true, true. Uh okay, so Gabby's Gabby's job in this plan is just to get Crassus in the cell. And it's Caesar's choice if Crassus is gonna live or die. And then Zina goes off on Gabby about how terrible a person Crassus is. Uh, she gives this example of the village of Gardenus and how this village all surrendered without a fight, but he still gave the order to crucify everyone, like a man, woman, and child. Pretty brutal. And Zina's just like fed up.

unknown 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

She doesn't want to talk about it anymore. She hops on Argo and rides off and is like, good luck, Gabby.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah. And we're kind of like, because we're here in this universe and Zina's telling us this, or like some people, Gabby. I hope she's not gonna listen to this guy. Because some people are bad in this universe and they just do bad stuff.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

And some people are bad in the real universe and they do bad stuff too. And if you're and like my stance is that Gabby, this these are not isolated instances. Like you are a player in this war and this game of thrones right now, Gabby. Yeah. So if you're gonna be a part of it, you have to be a part of it. And if you're not, then don't.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Right. Go find a wandering bard to share your tales with for about 45 days and then come back. And then come back. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

You know, it's your like just and that's that's what the next episode is really about. But um so we're kind of getting towards that. So, okay. So we go to Caesar's party in the palace.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Oh, it's a wine we cut to a wine fountain. But that's the wine fountain. Were they reaction?

SPEAKER_03 39:40

There's grapes and candles everywhere, beautiful columns. They've totally transformed this room, right? Um statue of the wolf mother suckling Romulus and Remus. Uh, there's statues of like random other guys. We don't know who they were, but uh people are milling around in Roman drapery, typical like party chatting vibes. Pompey and Caesar's guy, Brutus, are chatting and snacking, and they're gossiping about Xena. They confirm the only thing we can trust Zina to do is hate Caesar.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

And then we see freely, he does a great job. He's like over the top. Speaking over the top, then we see two shirtless hunk trumpet players.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Oh my gosh. I know they're trumpeting in. We have like a long scene of them trumpeting Zina into the room.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

So the crowd's cheering. And Zina arrives on this like red velvet litter carried by more hunky shirtless men. I know. It's like in a diaphanous like red gown.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

It's just so like homoerotic and wild, like how we're like oiled.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Like just we're gonna need seven, no, eight oiled men trumpeting, and then let's bring in another six. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

The litter. And Xina is wearing this gorgeous red gown. Oh my gosh. Golden crown, a silk veil falling over her hair, and like she has the most intense face. Like she hates it so much, but she's participating.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

She's like, fine. I know, and Caesar's glamorous like set all this up for her, and he takes her hand to help her up, and she snatches it away before he can kiss it. And there's this great little like sound, Xenoverse effect when she takes her hand away. Caesar grabs a goblet of wine for her, and then he heads off to chat up someone else, kind of avoiding discussion of freeing Virginics. And then from across the party, Pompey does a little like raised goblet cheers at her, and he walks over.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Ugh, familiar. I know. Just like, okay, Pompey. All right. We've seen you.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

We know you.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

We know you. Okay, Pompey. That's nice. Thank you for the raised glass.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

So he comes over and she's standing over like a caterer's tray.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

And then she sets her goblet on it, and she's just like wolfing down grapes and like cutting fruit open with a knife. She is so funny.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

I know. But fruit, I mean, it looks like plastic fruit, but she's gobbling it up like there's no tomorrow. Oh my god. She's gonna make this is a free feast and she's gonna make the most of it.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Totally. That is the exact energy. And like she is not trying to put on airs at all. She like she's treating the Romans like they should be treated and just like spitting seeds on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

And so I also love that the servant lady who's holding the tray just kind of hangs out there. So when Pompey comes and starts talking at Zina from like behind Zina's shoulder, which is like the most awkward way possible to talk to somebody. Yeah, the woman with the tray is clearly has noticed that Zina's hungry and just kind of stands there pretending not to listen for a while.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

I love her. Is she your uh scene queen? She is.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

She did a great job.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Okay, so Pompey says, like, so why do they call you the warrior princess? And then she spits seeds onto the floor and says, Because Caesar was taken. And then he laughs so hard. Because he's like never heard a woman make a joke before.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

He's also like deliberately trying to endear himself to her in like the most transparent way.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

But he's like I like you.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I know. She's like, uh, I don't like me. Yeah. Yeah. I do not want to be liked by you.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

She's like, I'm not a likable person. And then he like definitely thinks he's flirting because he like doesn't know. I think they just do such a good job with this character of like he doesn't know how to talk to a woman unless it's like sexual, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

And then it's such the energy of like, I've never met someone like you before. Right. So gross. You're like, okay. And then she starts getting really sucked into the politics of everything. And uh we're like, is she sticking to her plan? We're not quite sure. Are sure because you know Xena's it's Zina. Yeah. So Brutus now gets everyone's attention at the party to present the barbarian Virkinix, the prize of Caesar. And Virkinix is brought out by two armed guards with his like arms chained to a long piece of wood, chains around his neck. Soldiers are calling him a dog, saying he's dirty, he probably hasn't eaten. Caesar uh makes fun of him and calls him Virkinix the Magnus and makes a pointed look at Pompey to just like really, really I'm the Magnus. And then Caesar splashes his wine in Birkinx's face. Birkinics lunges at Caesar while the crowd laughs and claps, and Zena's just not happy about any of this. So we go back to the belly of the ship to check on Zina or check on Gabby. Crassus is trying to manipulate Gabby, and she's just trying to make her bed, which is a hammock.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

She's like, I gotta lay down this bed and this nice little blankie. And Crassus is like, does Zina always tell you her plans? Do you always know everything?

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Because maybe. I know. And then and then he's also kind of she asks him about Gardenus, right? She's like being kind of feisty and mad at him. Mm-hmm. Then he acts like he regrets the whole thing. He says he wasn't even there.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

And then she's trying to, she's bel like she She looks like she believes him, but she's like made a decision to trust Zena, which we're going to accept at this point. I wish that she would just be like, obviously, this man is lying. But she's like, Well, I've learned that Zena is usually correct.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

In this situation.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

We're growing, we're learning. And then she tries to reassure him that like he doesn't have to die. Like they have a plan. Right. But yes, we can tell she doesn't necessarily believe in the plan.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

So then we cut to the Roman jail, the tulianum. It's dark and gross. Roman soldiers shove Virginics into a cell. Xena storms in ahead of Caesar and his guards. She's flowing scarves. She's a vision. And she tells Virginics that Mandela, his wife, sent her. And she and their kids are safe. And while she's talking to him, she has this piece of clay in her palm and she makes this like secret impression of the guard's keys. And then she sneaks it down her cleavage. And then Caesar's like, jutting time's over. And they leave. But Caesar corners her in a hallway and tells her she looks incredible, which she does.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

She does. She's like, I know. And the chemistry here, like he Caesar's so awful.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

But Carl Urban and Lucy Lull have such great chemistry. They do. And they're like such charismatic people. And uh you can just like feel this tension and power between them. And she really wants to kill him. And like, oh, it's just so good. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

And and then he's like, I love you. Like, this is hatred, war, conflict, love. And she's like, I have to go to the bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

A good escape. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

And it's like, yeah, as if he would ever even know what love is, man.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Like, as if it's like, I've never heard that people use the bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Totally. It's like a woman going to the bathroom. We don't even have those here.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

But it feels like really the spell that he had over her is broken, you know? Right. We don't get the sense that she's enamored of him at all. No. So we go back to the ship same night. Gabby's sleeping with a million burning candles on this wooden ship. I know.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Oh my gosh, I wrote that down too. Like we're back on the ship. She's got her hammock figured out. Looks actually pretty comfy for a hammock. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, there's like a million candles. Like, don't light any candles on a ship. It's made of wood. Yeah. And then she leaves them lit while she's sleeping and closes. Exactly. She's he spots it immediately. Not only are there lit candles, but they're like in a rocking bowl on a rocking ship, which we can tell because the camera keeps tilting side to side. I know. And they're on a wicker basket.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

They haven't been placed anywhere safe at all. So unsafe.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

Uh and Princess sees this opportunity. He's able to inch a candle over and burns through the ropes around his wrists. He sneaks up the stairs, but bang, Zina knocks him to the floor, kicks him, and puts a pinch on him. And then he thinks Zina wants to kill him. Or and we for a second are like, oh, is Xena gonna kill him? And then Gabby's like, don't kill him. And we're like, she's like, I'm not gonna kill him. Yeah. Like I was, but no. And then she gives Gabby the key that she made and she says that it fits the jail cell and both jail cells down there. And she learns that Caesar is going to hold a gladiatorial fight in the Colosseum tomorrow. He's gonna execute her kinks there. He's not gonna do the trade, as they knew. So they're not changing the plan. Like because Caesar staked his whole reputation on the capture and execution of her kinks. So he's like, he's not gonna give this up.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Then we have a commercial break. And Zina's thinking the execution will be at the end of the games. Zina has to, or Gabby has to get everything in place before then. Gabby's pretty upset. She says Zina's making her an accomplice to murder and accuses Zina of being casual about it. But I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Because basically, like they're gonna switch the two. And then once Crassus is in front of the entire crowd in the Coliseum, Caesar is probably going to execute him as for Kinnex because no one else will know, except for, you know, Compi, probably. Yeah, like Company Crassus.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

Yeah, except for the people who are closer. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because Crassus has made it clear before that like Caesar's popular, you know, his face is on everything. Everyone knows his face, which is a really smart move to make sure everyone knows who you are in a world without social media. It actually works. Yeah, and then Crassus, his face is not recognized. You know, he's just an unknown soldier, basically.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Um, okay, so then we cut to Gabby and Crassus walking along a road, traveling to Rome, wearing disguises, kind of these like cultist robes.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Yeah. Long black robes that even like cover their faces, basically.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

They stop at a well together and he tries to run away, but Gabby stops them with her staff. Like she beats them up a little bit. She has a great staff throw. He whines that he thought she valued life, she should let him go. And then she's like, you know, you can convince the guards who you are. Like you don't have to die. And then she says she's gonna give him the Imperial Ring to prove who he is once she and Xena and Verkinics are gone. Um, and then as he's like, okay, cool, thanks, he's not paying attention to what she's doing, and we see her pouring something from a little vial into the water label that she's gonna be. I know, which feels very ungabby. And she's not like doing that.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

We don't even know what it is.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

So then we later go back into the empty royal palace in Rome. Zina storms in. She picks up a dagger that's been left on the table, kind of inspects it, and then Pompey creeps out from the shadows. He's like trying to flirt with her about the like reassuring weight and feel of a blade. And then he says, Caesar sent Brutus to find Gabby. And then Pompey wants Zina on his team to push Caesar and Crassus out of Rome. And he proposes that he'll release Virginia's, and this knife will prove that she was Pompey's? Oh, he gives her the knife to prove that she has his protection when she is trying to escape.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Oh that's what this is. Well, also it's like implied, yeah, that she's gonna kill Caesar with the knife exact. And like Was it implied there?

SPEAKER_03 51:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

I think so. Because it's like he's like, well, basically, you really love Caesar, or you really hate Caesar. And so, like, if you killed him, okay. Basically, if Caesar and Crassus weren't in the way, then I could release Virginic. So he's kind of tempting her with that.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

And that it's kind of smart because Zina does have a good read on the triumvirate. And we get in this moment in this episode that Caesar's trying to like take control of like push Crassus and Pompey out. Yeah. And so like Xina could exploit that potentially. But she has a good, better read on Pompey than she thinks she's doing.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Zina is in the room, so she is in control of everything that's happening, you know?

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

So while Zina's doing that, Gabby has is doing this elaborate my husband's drunk con, which we've seen before. She's making this like mess in town with drugged crasses, and the two of them get thrown into a Roman jail, and there's uh some great extras just being left.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Oh my gosh, I know. You're drunk. I loved him.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

He was my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Yeah. That's what everybody says when someone's drunk around you. Yeah, you just look at that. Drunk. That's how it is. That's just how it is in an old Roman village.

unknown 53:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

So while Gabby's doing that, Caesar and Brutus are meeting about Xena and Gabby. Brutus lost Gabby's trail, so they uh they don't realize that she and Crassus are in Rome.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Right. They don't even know that they've both been placed in the drunk tank yet.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

No, they don't know that at all. And while Caesar's doing that, Gabby and Crassus are still doing the drunk bit, but yeah, once the guards are gone, she lets Virkinics know that she's there to help. She's doing she's done her part. She's doing a great job. Yep. Then we go back to Caesar, and now he's in his royal chambers. It's pretty sparse, but I don't hate the vibe. It's like blue and gold, some candles, some indoor plants, a big scale to weigh money.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Yeah, some really attractive scales on his desk, like giant scales. Yeah. Just in case he needs to weigh anything while he's taking care of the scrolls.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

With his back to the window.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

And then um, yeah, he's like sits at his desk. He's writing probably about how like dumb he thinks the galls are and how cool the romans are. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And then behind him, we see Zina jump up and in through the window with a knife in her teeth, echoing her entrance in the death part one. So we're like, is Gabby gonna betray her again? Like, what cycles are we reliving over and over and over? What is your karma?

SPEAKER_01 54:36

She looks a little ferocious because she has the knife gripped in her teeth. So we're like, oh, is she going to has she lost track of the plan and is trying to get Caesar out as like an extra bonus?

SPEAKER_03 54:46

Yeah, is Zina in control of herself? So she sneaks up, she's about to stab Caesar, but he knows she's there. Oh no, the guards jump out to nab her. She fights them, but they hold her down, which I feel is an indication that Zina's got a plan. Yeah. Because we've seen her fight the entire Persian army.

unknown 55:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

A couple bodyguards is not gonna do it. She's not gonna stop her. Plus, we've got a second hint that this is not actually correct when Caesar's like, you have one obsession, Zina. That's me. But we all know that that's not her one obsession.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

No.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

She likes justice and truth. She does love truth and justice. After all.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

That's Zina's obsession. Oh, she just and her obsession's Gabby. She wants Gabby to be safe. So Caesar picks up her knife from the floor, and he can tell Crassus was involved. I don't think he says anything at this point, but he likes knows everything. Zina's acting desperate and crazy. Caesar's like, you're obsessed with me, duh. And because of your obsession, I have Virkinics, you, and about to have Gabby. And then but we also like haven't seen, they haven't been together since Britannia, right? In the fight with Boudicca. So like the last time he even saw her. But and also I don't think maybe we'll get to it later, but I don't think he's ever really seen her fight, right? Because she learned everything after he like crippled her, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

So I'm certainly underestimating her. Completely. Okay, so we go to the Roman guards, throw Zina in the jail cell with Verkinics.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

Which I would think they would have like tied her up and have a million armed guards around her, but clearly they're underestimating her, as you said. Yeah. Exactly. So Caesar taunts them. He says Zina's death will be the opening act at the Gladiator Games. And then Caesar and his guards leave. Zina calls out to Gabby, who throws the key over to Zina. Why she didn't unlock her door first. I know.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

I was like, that was really lucky that the key made it all the way over. Risky, risky Gabby. It would have sucked if it just landed in the middle of that passageway.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

And so their plan now is to wait to escape until all of Rome is distracted at the Gladiator Games. Crassus is still drugged and asleep, so they don't have to worry about him. Zena unlocks the cell door and then knocks the guards unconscious. So her plan is going according to plan. Yeah, exactly. Then we go to the Roman Colosseum. It's a full, roaring crowd, cheering, bloodthirsty.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Villagers galore. Villagers, townspeople, inhabitants, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 57:26

Everyone's everyone's here. All of Rome is at this Caesar spectacle. And he's like, he's in his little box talking to his people, and the rest of the crowd can't hear him, but he's kind of waxing poetic to Brutus about how everyone there is, you know, they're all just sheep. They're sheeple. They all want to watch it.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

It's like everyone thinks they're an individual.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

I was like, yeah, we do, actually. And he's like, they just want to see Virginics die. And I'm going to give the people what they want. And Pompey and Brutus are in the box with Caesar. They're all dressed up for the occasion. Caesar's in these like blues that match all the regalia around the Coliseum. So we're really tying him to this space and to the people. Pompey's in red. Brutus is in gunmetal gray, like breastplate. He's being the muscle. And then Pompey and Caesar talk about where Crassus is. Caesar's sure he's in town. It's just a matter of time until he catches him.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

So we know they're still not in on the plan. Like they don't know what's happening yet.

SPEAKER_03 58:28

They don't know. But what Caesar does know is that Pompey had given Zina a dagger and he throws the dagger at him.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:36

Implying that the scheme had failed. And Pompey looks pretty scared, rightfully.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Absolutely. And now Pompey may know that I mean he he probably doesn't even get it yet, but we know that Zina has played both of them, basically. Yeah, totally. She has sewn dis mistrust between them, even further mistrust.

SPEAKER_03 58:54

Totally. But I think that Pompey wouldn't know that Zina did that on purpose because she has been caught and she's in the editorial game. Yeah. So we cut to the guards, rough housing Zina out of the jail cell. She asks, she's like, You guys deaf guys. She's so funny. And we see left behind in her cell is not Verkinnex, but a drugged and sleeping Crassus in Verkinics's cloak. Mm-hmm. We hear the roar of the crowd at the Colosseum. The guards drag Zina to the center of the gladiator pit, and they make her kneel before Caesar.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

And he makes a speech to the citizens of Rome. Oh God.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

It's about the end of an era, end of Gaulish resistance, the death of the enemy of Rome, Zina. And it's like such a spectacle of Roman propaganda. And we talked about gladiator games in our research on gladiators for the dirty half-dozen episode. If you want to learn more about that, which was so fun. I think about it all the time. But Zina has to fight for her life now.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

This is she's gonna be faced with some some very um well-equipped enemies here.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:04

Let's describe the um the Coliseum a little bit so people can really set the scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

I thought it looked kind of, I mean, it's enormous, but it also looked a little bit small and dirty to me. Like they needed to paint it. I was like, this is a very rough, like somebody hasn't been paying attention to this coliseum.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:20

It's a really interesting choice. Like maybe that was to kind of imply that Caesar's money was running out. I don't know if they thought that far into it, but it's like it's interesting because the um, so there's the like dusty dirt pit in the center. And then totally expected, totally expected fine with the dusty dirt pit. We were expecting this, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then there's 20 feet high walls around that. Right. And it's like rectangular instead of circular, which is interesting. That's interesting too. And there's it's like very narrow, very narrow. And there's some stairs going up to the first platform at the far end, and there are like five tiers of the audience who are all watching and everyone's jeering, but it did seem more sparse. Like I was expecting this to be, I don't know, it was still scary. I feel like maybe the sparseness made it more frightening.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Maybe it was like, I mean, but for such like a monumental occasion as the execution of her kinnocks, you'd think he would do it at like the Coliseum. Yeah. Like a gladiator ring, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

But maybe that's all he could book last minute. You know, yeah. Who else was at Madison Square Garden that?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Yeah. They're all booked. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

Something else is happening. So the guards leave her in the center of this kind of like despair pit. She's weaponless. And then two warriors on horseback, one masked, one unmasked, kind of come out to fight her.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

And they're wearing kind of like intimidating and useless, especially one of them, like leather strap situations. I forget what those are called, but it's basically like later hosing without the bottom. Totally. You're like, they look scary, but only like But like you could just stab right through there, so it's not helping. Yeah. It's just like Zina. So yeah, it's a weird energy here.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

Cause like we don't know exactly how far Zena's gonna take this bit. Right. Yeah. So the horseback guy is right up to her. She ducks. One has this like swinging mace, the other a net. She jumps up and lands on her. So we see this net again. We're just constantly netting.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

They're like, okay, they are really into nets. They didn't have enough for the real weapons. So they just were like rope makers, go for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

Go for it. Okay, so we cut while this is happening upstairs. You know, Zina's causing this distraction. Gabby and Verkinics are escaping. He's disguised as a guard and he's going to get the horses. And Gabby's.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

Now we understand why they knocked that guard out before the escape attempt because Verkinics is going to dress in the guard guard's clothing. Yeah, he's completely disguised. Gabby is just wearing her Gabby wear.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

She doesn't need a disguise anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

She doesn't need a disguise.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

And she's going to go into the audience. Right. So Zina can see her.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

So that she'll know that they've escaped. But it's and that she can kind of conclude the battle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

But it seems pretty far away. We trust it. It does seem risky. Yeah. But that's okay. Yeah. We're fine. And on their way out, Gabby gives Crassus his or she's like about to give her a big thing. She's about to give Crassus his ring back. But like Verkinics almost stops her. But then he like, you know, he takes a step back because he's like, you know what? I owe you so much. I'm not going to judge you for whatever you're going to do. And it turned out Verkinics had family at Gardenus. And he found his niece crucified. He tried, he pulled her down, tried to save her, and as she was dying, she told him it was all Crassus.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

So he was there and personally ordered everybody to be crucified after the surrender.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

So Gabby's horrified by this. Yeah. And in the moment decides not to give him his ring. Yeah. Well, we don't know. We don't know at this point.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:58

We don't know, you know, at this exact moment, we don't know if she gave I thought I thought she didn't, but well, she like she doesn't, but that's like kind of what how the tension builds of why like she's like flashing the ring later. Um and so yeah, I felt like that was kind of like an important thing here of like the tension of like this is it. This is Gabby making the decision of whether or not she's going to decide this man's fate. So Zina's in the Coliseum, she's stalling for time, right? Making everyone think she's scared. She's like ducking.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

She's doing a great job of like looking like she's being hit over. It really does look like one guy swings the mace at her and misses her, but she does like a prat fall back so that it looks to the audience like she's been hit.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

Totally. And then Caesar's loving it. The crowd's loving it. And Pompey is really nervous that Zina's not gonna make it through this. And then he's next. And then one guy like tosses this net onto her, drags her around. Crowd goes wild. She's screaming. Yeah. And then we see Gabby.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

Oh yeah, Gabby's fighting her way to the front of the crowd so Zina can see she's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

The guy drops the net, she fights to get out, but before the guy can stab her with a spear, Zina sees Gabby in the crowd.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

And then we get, I wrote down. It's like, oh hello, aha, da da hoa.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Which I can't remember the tune, but we all know Zina's fight.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

It's like it's like the fighting Xena music that's not the theme, but it's like the fighting Zena music.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

Yeah, it's these, yeah, these women like gathering their courage to, you know, that one last push.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

I can like, it's on the tip of my ears. I know. And I don't know what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

And she Zina pulls this guy and his horse. Whole horse down.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

It's a whole horse. The crowd is the horse. That's a good horse, my friends. Oh, yeah. Whoever that horse is, I hope they got three extra apples. Well, maybe they're the same.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

They did a great. Job.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

They did an amazing job because that totally, I mean, that's an almost like episode defining moment. Yeah. I've never seen anyone pull a horse and ride her down. Not, but yeah, but now we've now we've seen it. Zena can be. That's what, like thousands of pounds. Thousands of pounds being pulled over by a single human is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:21

And then so the other guy rides up, she grabs a spear, and she knocks this guy off his horse with such force like 15 feet back. So clearly she was pulling every single punch before that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:33

The other guy gets the crowd switches.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

They're all cheering for her now.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

Yeah, because they just all they care about is power. You know, they don't care about anything else. So the other guy gets his sword, cuts her spear in half, but now she has two weapons. She beats him up, she's about to kill him. The crowd is screaming for her to kill him, giving her the thumbs down, which is, you know, implying death. But she stops herself and she stabs the spear next to his head because Zina doesn't kill for your entertainment people. That's right. That gladiator is just another guy in prison.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

He's just trying to get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

No. So they're mad about that, but she doesn't care. No. And Caesar's like, take her to her cell. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:16

He is furious. He's like never been this mad. They grab Zina, throw her back in the cell, and they take this Crassus as Verkinics, whose head is covered in a black hood. He's still pretty out of it. They take him to the arena, and Verkinics, disguised as a guard, stays behind. And he tells Zina that Gabby said she'd meet them at the stable, which isn't the plan, Gabby. Now you're deviating from the plan.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

Yeah, I was like, in what stable? To get it. Like she's still up in the ring. So now they're waiting for Gabby. Now they're waiting for Gabby to get out of here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:49

They run out because they have to go rescue her from whatever's about to happen. Right, exactly. Back in the gladiator pit, an executioner is setting up his little like dais at the feet of Caesar and Pompey's booth. Getting the angles just right. They bring the hooded prisoner up to kneel before Caesar. Gabby's watching from the crowd, and Caesar goes, citizen of Rome, what do you been waiting for? The death of the barbarian, the kinnyx. And they go, Yeah, yes, die. Yeah. The guards remove the cowl, and Pompey and Caesar and Brutus all see this is Crassus, not Birkin's.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

That's right. And you say They have a moment to decide. They're trying to figure it out, but the pressure is too great.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:33

Pressure's great. And Pompey like jumps up. He's in shock, but he's also thrilled. You know, like this is great for that. Xena and Birchinix rush up the stairwell in the crowd to see what's going on. Pompey tells Caesar to get through with to go through with it. Uh he can't not at this point. Like he has to save face. He can't like ever imply that anyone had one over on him and look foolish. And Caesar gets this cold look in his eye and a flick of the wrist. Crassus is walking. He Crassus is waking up. He's kind of begging for his life. He says he's Crassus. He says he has the Imperial ring, but he doesn't have it on. He thought he did.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

I know. And he even sees glinting in the crowd the Imperial ring on Gabby's. Gabby's feeling she's wearing it, right? No.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:18

But I feel like she didn't have to do all that. Like that is like unimaginable cruelty, Gabby.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Yes, I know. She's like, here it is. Bye. She's like, I've decided not to give it to you and show you that I decided to have a give it to you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:34

And I'm watching you die. So you know that I know what you did.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

And he's like, please tell them who I am. Yeah. And she looks away. She's not even, she can't even look. And she's not, I mean, what could she do then? Now she's made her choice. Yeah. And so she can't do anything else without sacrificing herself, Xina, and Rkynix. No, I mean I think she could watch.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:54

You know, I think like you could watch and be like, yay, Gabby, this is you did this, so you have to live with the consequences forever. Yeah. But Xina sees her making this choice and you know, is recognizing what this means for Gabby. Crassus is screaming for Caesar. It's like so grim. Yeah. We see the executioner raise his axe, Gabby walks away from the crowd, he screams, Caesar! We hear the swing of the blade, and his screams are cut short. Terrible. And okay, so in our world, Crassus did actually have his head cut off. And according to Cassius Dio, uh, the historian, he was killed by being force-fed liquid gold. Oh my god. I know. And according to Plutarch, after his death, his head and hands were cut off, and his head was used in a performance of Euripides' The Bacche as a prop. Remember this. Okay, remember that. Bowley. I know. We'll get into that in like five minutes. Sorry, I did not prepare anyone for that. History drop. Oh, that's so horrific. I know, I was and think Crosses did have his head cut off. I was like, oh my god, did he? So, like, just this episode and like the we, the like the plucking of historical facts and like manipulating them for like a different kind of fiction was uh so good. Yeah. So we go back on the ship, sailing to Greece, thank the gods. Gabby's going through it. She's like kind of staring overboard, staring at her new ring. She can't believe she played judge, jury, and executioner. Zina's trying to be comforting, saying she shouldn't have put Gabby in that situation, that they all have their own logic and morals, but there like wasn't any other way that this could work out.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

Yeah. And Gabby's like, she's coming to terms with it. She's like, I know that was the right thing to do. I felt it. Like that was the right decision, but I feel really awful about having to make that decision. And I think that's just part of life, Gabby. Sometimes you don't feel like some of us, when you're confronted with do you give the Imperial Ring back to Crassus and avoid his execution, or you just have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:06

No, no, we're so hard on her. I don't know how to not be hard on her, though, in this. I don't know. I know. I just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

I mean, it's a little bit how the character is written as the kind of devil for us. And so we're all just gonna be hard on her all the time. Yeah, could I have no compassion for ourselves? We don't have any compassion for ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:26

Let's bring it back to ourselves. Yes, let's bring that mirror like of z Gabby is the mirror to us, and we are really the ones who don't know what we would do in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

Yeah, and she's she's speaking out what we would feel probably if we didn't have a Gabby there to be like, uh, this is actually very strange.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:43

Yeah, like this is this is a big deal, and it is a big deal to kill people. We should never ever take a human life lightly. Yeah. And we shouldn't kill people. Uh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

So Zina and Gabby have this like reconciliation moment. But I do really appreciate like Zina's recognition that like this might have been the right choice in my vision, but it may not have been the right thing to have you in that position.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

Because it was a very morally challenging thing for Gabby to be put in that position to make that choice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

And she's saying that she reiterates to Gabby that Gabby is the most dear thing to her in all the world. And she feels like she keeps hurting her instead of protecting her. And I feel like, you know, we're back in that there's this power struggle between Gabby and Zina, where Zina feels like she has to be a protector because she feels so like alone in the world. She can't be in like a true partnership. And Gabby is trying to, you know, be an adult and break free and be her own person and not have to be in a relationship where someone is like shielding them from the world all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:45

Right. But also be autonomous without feeling like she has to like be a mirror of Xena. She can be her own separate person.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:54

Exactly. And then Gabby recommits to wanting to be there. She's like, no, I which is so key of like, yes, I made this decision. This was the plan. I went with the plan. And then they tell each other they love each other. I know. And then Gabby drops the ring into the ocean again, just like Titanic. Just like Titanic.

unknown 1:14:12

Oops.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

It's still down there, folks. And then we pan out on them sailing back to Greece, you know, thinking about what they've done. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

Yay, yeah. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

Uh what did Zina learn in this episode? Do we think?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

Oh my gosh. I always forget what Xina learns. She only teaches me.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:33

Well, I think we just talked about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

I think she you know learned and realized she's asking a lot of Gabby. And that's it. And that her choices might be different from Gabby's. And maybe like making a plan, she can't envision Gabby as like a second Zina, but she needs to recognize what Gabby's particular strengths are in the plan making.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:52

And yeah, and I think her she's learning and recognizing that Gabby will do whatever she asks her to do because she loves Zina so much. So then it's kind of up to they're just, you know, always kind of renegotiating their relationship of what they're asking of each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

And I love their communication. I mean, speaking of what Zina teaches, like their communication style in the end was so compassionate and sweet.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:19

And so clear and like owning their feelings and caring about the other person's feelings, talking about their own needs and the other person's needs and the needs of the partnership.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

This is like relationship therapy condensed into like 30 seconds of the episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

I know I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:36

And like under the guise of like having murdered like this Roman senator. And changed the entire course of the Roman Empire. I love it. And like that's the only way I want to talk about relationships, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

Absolutely. Put me in the Roman Empire to talk about it, bring me back out.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

That's all I want to do. Um and I think, okay, so Zina teaching, I think she taught us that Caesar doesn't cloud her judgment anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:02

Learning and growing. Um, and she showed Caesar how disciplined a warrior she is, and that she's actually way more powerful than him.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:11

Uh okay, extra Oscars. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:14

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:15

There was a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

They were so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

This was a great extra episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:21

Do you have a top?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:22

Just like always. Or should we just do honorable mentions? Call out drunk yeller.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:27

Yeah, me too. Same. I was like, I like the one that yelled drunk in a judgmental way, is my note. Look at it! Drunk! And I liked all the scary villagers and crowds people calling for death. That was funny. Yeah, they were good too. Okay, so our favorite reoccurring actor in the Xeniverse Award, the Sybil Award, got a many contenders here. So we have Carl Urban. He of course is he's the Caesar of Sybil Awards. He's an emperor of Cybil Awards. So we don't need to give him this particular award. Jeremy Callahan as Pompey played Calamon in season one's Blind Faith. I knew he looked familiar. Very familiar. Tomati Paduay as Verkinics played Garrell in season two's The Price. And we'll meet him again in season five and six. But for me, I'm gonna vote for Matthew Chamberlain as Crassus. Can you guess who else he played?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Okay. Crassus. No, I can't. I don't know who else he played. He also played.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

And girls just want to have fun. Orpheus, the head. Oh, that's so good. Which is wild because as Crassus, historically, Crassus had his head removed to play Orpheus to only wild. Isn't that like did they do that on purpose? I don't know. I can't tell you the answer to that question.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:57

I was like, who was the classics nerd in this casting room that was like, I've got an idea for Justine and Haley in the future? So insane.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:09

I'm gonna I'm gonna give it to Matthew Chamberlain. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

I agree. Brilliant. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:14

Who was your scene queen?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

My scene queen was the um hors d'oeuvre fruit holder. Okay. Uh Caesar's Party. She was brilliant. Although I could be convinced to have it be that horse that did that amazing fall. Oh my god. Okay. We might have to give out a couple scene queens because I guess there were some good ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:30

There were a lot. I really liked Firkinnex's wife, Mindala. Mindela. Uh she was really cool. I would have liked to see more of her. I really love the homo eroticism of Rome. I liked all the shirtless muscle guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Trumpeters, they were scene queens. I was like, who are they? I skipped that because I was cooking dinner. I was like, who are they trumpeting for? Where'd they come from? Like, oh, it's Zina.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:53

Okay, so I think uh, okay, I think the trumpeters, everybody at the party.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

Let's just say like every all the staff at the party. I'd say staff at the party. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:04

But they were particularly good. The the person who had to hold the fruit while Pumpy just awkwardly talked over Zina's shoulder and she was like, I know Xena's gonna want more fruit.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:13

That was like one of the best scenes in the Xena verse.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

So great. If we could just clip that scene and play it over and over.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:22

I'll try to.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

It was so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:25

And the horse, yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:26

So staff and the This is not the Oscars. We can have as many scene queens as we like. I know. We per episode. It's true. It means more when there's one, but this time they all knocked it out of the park.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:38

It was a really great, great, great, very episode. Okay, were they on Star Trek? It's a Carl Urban episode, so yes. Dr. Bones and the Kelvin timeline. Were they in Lord of the Rings? Carl Urban episode, Aomir, the leader of the writers of Rohan, who went to Theodin and Aragorn's aid at the Battle of Helm's Deep. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

I love him.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:58

Love him. And Gabby moments. We've arrived.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Favorite Gabby moment. I love when she offers the gruel. Hope you like Gruel. I thought you would. I was like, as soon as she said, that's my moment. I wrote it down. I was like, she says it as if someone might like Gruel. Yeah. You know? It's a very hopeful. Hope you like Gruel. I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:24

Not sarcastic at all. It says so much about her character that, like, even though he is this like horrible monster of men, she's known a lot of monsters and maybe she can sway them with her kindness, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

She's brought the gruel.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:39

I really love the end. I loved her, I love their relationship conversation. I loved her character growth of not blaming Xena and taking ownership of playing judge, jury, and executioner. But she didn't really, you know. But she played.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

I mean, I think the other side of that whole storyline is Crassus had built his career on kind of brutally serving the ambitions of Rome and Caesar.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

And so, or at least the ambitions of Rome, but in partnership with Caesar, totally fine with all of the moral problems of that. Yeah. And so when he goes for his judge, jury, and executioner who's actually Caesar, it's he kind of gets a comeuppance. Yeah. And death by beheading is not the same as uh crucifying an entire village. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:32

So I think it's it works out okay. I think it works out fine. And I think um what Gabby's also really reckoning with is that she's a major player. You know, she is becoming a a hero and learning what it is to be a hero, is you have to make these hard choices to keep being in the game, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting. Well, everyone. Anything else, Haley? Do you feel feel chatted out?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:59

I feel great about it. Like, I think this wasn't the most like rollicking fun episode for me, but I really enjoyed the history. Yeah. I really enjoyed the like yelly soldiers that were in this episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:12

And um yeah, this is I don't know, this episode, I really loved it. It just like when I first watched it, I was like, uh, I don't know. It's all these like dudes talking at Xena, and then I was like really dived into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:25

I was like, oh, this is great.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

Zena's just like playing everyone off each other. It was um, I I really liked it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:31

I loved it. I liked it too. And one thing that I like about it also is, you know, your story about Crassus drinking molten gold, like certainly reminds me of Game and Thr Game of Thrones, which like I'm sure we have lots of crossover fans, and I enjoyed the whole series as well. But one thing that I like about the way that Zena treats it, probably because it was like a network TV show, yeah, is that we don't necessarily like forefront all the gore of those stories, instead get into like the plot building and the kind of machinations and the imaginative like paths of character development.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Instead of maybe forefronting like the tortured gore that's so much a part of these stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:14

Yeah. And then like and the harm to women and female bodies too on that show, which is uh just so unfortunate because it was so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

It makes it hard to kind of fully revisit those stories sometimes for me as I continue to enjoy Xena.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:29

The more we watch this show, it's so great, the more I'm like this is one of the best shows that ever was. It is my favorite TV show, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:38

Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. And what I also love about it is in that vein of like 90s TV show, yeah, like it allows a lot of flexibility for the writers. So they can go in so many different directions, and you can have like a funny episode and like a historical episode and an adventure-heavy episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:57

It's really fun, it's so fun. And the cast and the world can just carry it all, and uh and the audience is just we're all here for it, you know, 30 plus years later. We love it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, guys. Well, if you guys like what we're doing here, you can like, subscribe, follow, leave us a review, share episodes with your friends. We have stuff going on on Patreon. We share screenshots from the episodes and our research from the episodes, and everyone over there is so fun. We love all of our Patreon subscribers. Thank you guys. We have merch on Teespring, we got shirts and hats and bags and cups and all sorts of fun stuff. And you can find links to everything at InAtTimeofAncient Gods.com.com. Stay tuned for our next episode, forget me not. We all know that Gabby's been questioning her path again, so she might be susceptible to a seemingly well-meaning, intentional community. Get ready for that, Neely.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:54

Yes! Oh my gosh, I can't wait. Well, thank you so much, Xena fans. All of the Xenoverse that joins us.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:03

We love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:04

We're just so grateful to be celebrating Xena with you. Ah, it's the best.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:08

It's a highlight of life. So thank you all for being on this journey with us. And until next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:18

Hooray! Okay, and stack Hope you like rule.